Author Topic: Pools with more than 51% of Network Hash  (Read 717 times)

Offline coradan

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Pools with more than 51% of Network Hash
« on: December 21, 2013, 05:25:31 AM »
Interesting conversation from Forum Chat:

CarlHenrik:   I was wondering, why isn't the FST value at $10+ yet? I mean LTC has been over $50 even though this coin is faster. This is seriously asked
coradan:   only marketing... I think FST is more useful than LTC...
coradan:   Try it is enough to see it...

CarlHenrik:   Yes very fast. I think it has some akwardness for miners though with the orphan rate? That I think should be declared up front for miners so they know that's how it's supposed to work with a short block time. And they should know the payout for mining is still just as good, in fact better than most coins when I look at coinwarz or coinchoose. Regarding mining I found a pool hashing over 50% of the network, fst.zabmail.ru, that is not good, right? even if the owner is honest.
CarlHenrik:   I see one of the last block solvers in that pool is "coradan"... I moved my megahashes to hashfaster to even things out but it's not enough

coradan:   :) Yes I am mining there... I prefer coinex, but until they are back online...
CarlHenrik:   You don't care that hasrate is over 50% of network hashrate in that pool?
coradan:   I am waiting for coinex... the pool is not bad.
CarlHenrik:   But couldn't the pool owner do a 51% attack?
coradan:   if all nodes (members) of that pool will use a fraud mining client, could be...
coradan:   but that is very unlikely

CarlHenrik:   I think miners might not need even notice the attack, in fact, need to not notice it for it to work, and when miners notice they will leave pool. Still I like to create safety margins to support fastcoin network. A large pool is also suitable target for DDOS attack, here cutting network security in half thereby making 51% attack easier as second step.
coradan:   The big pool could hide the blockchain to the others miners, and miners on the pool would obtain advantages over others outside of it, but someone could be miner on that big pool, so I dont see a security problem on this...
coradan:   And with respect DDOS attack, it would be possible, but 51% attack as a second step is very unlikely, because the miners on the pool attacked would go to others pools
« Last Edit: December 21, 2013, 05:42:18 AM by coradan »
Saludos,
http://www.ejemplosbitcoin.com
FST: ffjQcJKsqWbtku3hdyXunxwKMogs6pTZp1

Offline astalavister

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Re: Pools with more than 51% of Network Hash
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2013, 12:45:27 PM »
Hi there.
Im owner of fst.zabmail.ru pool.
As i see, youre worried about 51% attack on fst.
I undrstand, its possible for any pool holding more than 50% of network.
But.
I've running FST pool foi more then 5 month, sometimes my pool holding 85-90% of all network.
And trully to say i could drop the coin into nothingness already many times :)
I really not needed it at all.
Its only because ive trying to get best mining service for such unusual speedy coin.
No any other coins had such fast block time so from pool POV its hard to maintain best service for miners.
But, im try to do that.

Wishes, vasp.

Offline CarlHenrik

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Re: Pools with more than 51% of Network Hash
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2013, 03:38:45 PM »
Hi  astalavister,

And thank you for responding to this topic and also for having run the biggest fastcoin pool for a long time. I hope you do not feel personally attacked by my concerns regarding a pool having more than 50% of network hashrate. For everyone I'm informing that I have no knowledge of the person running fst.zabmail.ru my concerns were solely based on having seen the network structure with one pool so large.

I think there are several situations with cryptocurrencies as well as with traditional currencies where the technical possibility for "ill behaviour" by people is avoided because people in general do not want to exploit these and become "bad guys". It is also probably a better situation to be owner of the largest pool for a well established coin than to be a "bad guy" no longer running an abandoned pool for a dead coin destroyed by a 51% attack.

But even if neither the incentive to be a bad guy or the incentive to destroy the coin exists for the pool owner of a large pool for a certrain coin, a dominant pool is still a weakness in the network that can be used by others with other incentives.

 Let's say the fastcoin network is 400Mh/s and 300Mh/s of these are at a single pool then the hashpower is centralised to a single point that can be attacked with much more ease than attacking many different points. The attack can be a DDOS attack or a local power outtage or by physically removing the servers in a burglary. Any of these possibilities will leave the fastcoin network at only 100Mh/s in the example.

A strong inidividual miner (currently strongest scrypt miners I've seen have 100 - 200Mh/s) or a scrypt pool owner from a "competing" coin may then succeed with a 51% attack against a weakened network.  That different coins compete with each other or that highly invested miners would gain by 51% attacks against coins they are not invested in is not necessarily true though because it reflectes badly on the whole cryptocurrency economy if 51% attacks succeed. 

Although an attack is unlikely I think that safety margins are beneficial for attracting users to a coin. 

I think that as a miner in any network that you support it is sound to join smaller pools to make the network safer and of course also to use failover pools if the primary one goes down for any reason.




Offline Cheetahx

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Re: Pools with more than 51% of Network Hash
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2014, 12:20:05 AM »
Hi there.
Im owner of fst.zabmail.ru pool.
As i see, youre worried about 51% attack on fst.
I undrstand, its possible for any pool holding more than 50% of network.
But.
I've running FST pool foi more then 5 month, sometimes my pool holding 85-90% of all network.
And trully to say i could drop the coin into nothingness already many times :)
I really not needed it at all.
Its only because ive trying to get best mining service for such unusual speedy coin.
No any other coins had such fast block time so from pool POV its hard to maintain best service for miners.
But, im try to do that.

Wishes, vasp.

Hello Vasp,

Thank you for your post we appreciate it and we appreciate all the work you have done so far to support our coin.  With respects to a 51% attack, it might be a good idea for you to either recommend any new members to your pool to other FST pools such as...

http://fastcoin.miningpool.co/

https://fst.mining4all.eu

Or any others on our master list (besides yours of coarse ;-)...

http://www.fastcoin.ca/mining-pools.html

If it would not be too much trouble you could also perhaps partition your pool into two groups as a suggestion as well?  We realize you are not trying to dominate the network however for the sake of the communities best interests and in the interests of maintaining value to the coin and Satoshi's 51% Network attack warning, it might be in everyone's interest that you do so.

We too have not noticed any security related double spend issues with our coin, however we want to be sure that this will not be the case for our coin as we move forward.

Bitcoin is also having its own sets of issues policing this type of activity, we normally don't like to have to comment on this however we do expect our coin to rise in value over the coarse of the year and we are also in negotiations with several exchanges at the moment.  We want to be sure that network distribution across all pools should not be in question as we move forward.

Please let us know what your thoughts are on this as we look forward to any feedback and recommendations you would consider to make.

Sincerely

Cheetahx
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 12:23:44 AM by Cheetahx »